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September 19, 1999
Pastor Joseph Chambers
Paw Creek Ministries
5110 Tuckaseegee Road
Charlotte, NC 28208
pawcreek@pawcreek.org
Dear Pastor Chambers,
On August 18, 1999 I received your newsletter entitled "The End
Times & Victorious Living." On the front page of this newsletter there was
an article called: "Confused Charismatic Theology & the Dake's Bible." In
reading this article it seems that you have written about something which you
know very little about. Believing that you are a man of integrity and honor I
would like to point out several problems with the piece and also ask a few
questions if you would permit me.
Pastor Chambers you stated in the first paragraph: : : : "Many years
ago, I became leery of the Dake's Bible, but never really understood why."
This statement sets the tone for the rest of your article. You are correct when
you make the statement "I never understood..." And, it is even clearer
from the rest of the article, that you still do not understand the notes of the
Dake Bible. Pastor Chambers you said: "I basically quit using the Dake's
Bible about twenty years ago and simply put it on the shelf; that you "moved
away from" the Dake Bible; "I never used it much."
The question becomes how Pastor Chambers, have
you become such a scholar, able to point out so-called problems with a Bible,
which by your own admission, you have "never really understood," "put away
20 years ago," "moved away from," and finally "never used much?"
To the honest and sincere student of God's Word it is clear that you are embarking upon a discussion of which you are completely ignorant about.
Scripture is against this type of criticism. We are to "know them which
labour among you," (1 The. 5:12) Jesus said to "neither accuse any
falsely;" (Luke 3:14) Proverbs makes it quite clear that: "He that
answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him."
(Proverbs 18:13)
2. Why do you make associations with ministers
that you feel are held in disrespect with Rev. Dake? Are you attempting to prove
guilt by association? Are we not to judge every man by his own actions, words
and deeds?
You made the statement: "Let me give you one Scripture that is
foundational to what Hagin, Copeland, Hinn, Crouch, etc. are now teaching around
the world." At the very onset of this article it appears that you are
attempting to "set up" Dake by using the "guilt by association" argument.
Statements such as these psychologically pre-dispose the reader to be negative
to the Dake teachings without even knowing what they are. Again in on page 2
column 3 you write: "The doctrines of Hagin, Copeland, Crouch, and Hinn, etc,
are clearly associated with this heresy. Paul Crouch, in a statement to Benny
Hinn on TBN, stated that Jesus received His divinity back when He ascended out
of hell after being born again." Pastor Chambers, Dake's teaching should
stand on its own, being judged by the Word of God. What ever any other minister
may say are write, they are to be judged for, NOT Dake.
But, since you have made this association let me
challenge you. I challenge you to find one place in Dake Bible or any other
of his writings where Dake says that: "Jesus received His divinity back when
He ascended out of hell after being born again." It is not there.
Not one time. Yet you have given your readers the false impression that Crouch
got this doctrine from Dake.
Scripture says that: "So then every one of us
shall give account of himself to God." (Romans 14:12) Dake's teachings are
to stand solely on what Dake has said, not what others say he said.
In your criticism of Dake you quote a Matthew 1:1 note of Dake's
concerning Matthew's use of the word Christ in reference to Jesus. As you know
Matthew 1:1 reads: "The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of
David, the son of Abraham." Your citation of Dake's note is as follows: "Like
the name "Jesus" it has no reference to deity, but to the humanity of the Son of
God, who became the Christ or the "Anointed One" 30 years after He was born of
Mary. God "made" Him both Lord and Christ. The Hebrew is Messiah.
Then, you write: "No Biblically solid
minister or Bible student would accept the quote above. It is rank heresy and
must be totally rejected or our view of Jesus Christ as the eternal Son of God
is compromised. To suggest that Jesus became the Christ or the "Anointed One"
thirty years after His birth is to commit heresy."
First off,
Pastor Chambers you have failed to consult the Bible on this issue. It is very
simple. Dake believes that Jesus who was in the form of God, laid aside this
status are at least the use of it, in order to become a man, (the incarnation)
come to this earth, live a life of sinless perfection, and die on the cross as
the Son of God for our sins; so that we might have redemption and freedom from
sin and death. This is stated by Paul in Philippians 2:6-8 Who, being in
the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself
of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the
likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and
became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Like Dake, Pastor
Chambers you also believe this as is shown by your "caption statement" on page 1
of your newsletter. You say: "The Son of God did indeed empty Himself to
become the Son of Man. What is extremely important is that this emptying was not
a forsaking of His eternal essence, but an emptying of manifesting that essence.
He was never void of His divine essence, but He did limit Himself not to express
it while depending wholly on His Father and the Holy Spirit."
Had you
bothered to take the time to study Dake, you would have read on page 386, of "God's
Plan for Man," by Rev. Dake: "The true Biblical teaching of the kenosis
of Christ is that in taking human form He divested Himself of His divine
attributes, or at least power to use them, having laid aside His God-form and
voluntarily given up His glory which He had with the Father before the world was
and become limited in knowledge, wisdom, power, glory, and in every way that man
was, and that He retained His deity or His divine nature. The Bible further
teaches that He was made of a woman without a human father and was, therefore,
free from the fallen human nature that came through Adam and His male
descendants (Luke 1:32-35; Rom. 8:3; Gal. 4:4). It could not be that Christ laid
aside His divine nature, for then He would cease being God. Paul did not say He
ceased being God, but that He laid aside His God-form and emptied Himself of
everything that would hinder Him from being a true and real human being and "in
all things" like His brethren (Heb. 2:9-18)."
Lets compare
these statements:
Rev. Chambers - "What
is extremely important is that this emptying was not a forsaking of His eternal
essence, but an emptying of manifesting that essence. He was never void of His
divine essence,..."
Rev. Dake - "and that
He retained His deity or His divine nature. It could not be that Christ laid
aside His divine nature, for then He would cease being God."
Rev.
Chambers it is clear for all to see that you agree with Dake on this subject,
and yet you did not even know it. Also see Dake's statements found on God's
Plan page 389, under the heading: What Does Our Lord's "Kenosis" Teach Us?
It Teaches:
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1. That Christ was
always divine (Micah 5:1-2; John 1:1-3).
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2. That He could not
cease being God in nature (I Tim. 3:16).
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3. That He retained His divinity when
becoming incarnate in flesh (Matt. 1:23) .
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4. That He was truly
human as well as divine and lived while on Earth a normal and perfect human life
as an example to all men who desire to please God ( l Pet. 2:21).
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5. That in so doing He
laid aside His natural and divine attributes or at least limited their use, and
became a perfect example of yieldedness to God and His Spirit to overcome the
world, the flesh, and the devil (Heb. 10:5-9; Acts 10:38).
Pastor
Chambers, is their even one of the above 5 statements that you disagree with. I
think not. Yet, you have found yourself to be at odds with Dake theology, not
based on what Dake has written, but what you think others have said about what
they think Dake has written. My dear brother you have erred greatly.
Now that
being said, Dake also believes that Jesus living "as a man" (as an
example to you and I) needed to be baptized (or anointed) by the Holy Ghost.
Acts 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with
power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the
devil; for God was with him.
All Dake is
saying in the Matthew 1:1 note is that Jesus the Son of God received His
anointing at the time of Spirit baptism. See: Matthew 3:16 And Jesus, when he
was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were
opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and
lighting upon him:
Jesus
Himself testified to being baptized in the Holy Spirit. Mark 10:38-39 But
Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I
drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? And they
said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the
cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be
baptized:
John the
apostle testified of Jesus as receiving the baptism in the Spirit. John 3:34
For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the
Spirit by measure unto him.
Now with
this understanding, lets look at the meaning of the word Christ. Strong's tells
us that the word used for Christ in Matthew 1:1 is "Christos" and it
means: "anointed, i.e. the Messiah, an epithet of Jesus :- Christ"
So then the
question may be asked when was Jesus the "son of man" anointed with the Holy
Ghost? Remember Acts 10:38 says: "How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the
Holy Ghost and with power:" The answer is obvious to everyone. At the
baptism by John in the river Jordan. Matthew 3:16 And Jesus, when he was
baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened
unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon
him:
Now we see
what Dake was talking about. NOT that Jesus became God at the baptism, or even
the son of God, but that he was anointed at the baptism for His earthly
mission. And yes, it is perfectly proper and correct to say that Jesus was
anointed at the baptism. And, if we were speaking Greek we would also be
speaking properly to say that Jesus became the "Christ" (Greek word for
anointing) at the baptism experience. In fact, Pastor Chambers, you yourself
say in column 3, page 2, that Jesus was "anointed of the Holy Ghost."
Had you
bothered to really read the Dake Bible, rather than placing it on the shelf, you
would have read that Dake fully and completely believes in Jesus as God and a
full member of the Trinity and in existence before the time of His coming to
earth. See John 1:1 note where Dake states: "The Word refers to Christ (John
1:14; Rev. 19:13) and proves His pre-existence (Micah 5:1-2; Rev. 1:8,11; Rev.
2:8; Rev. 22:13-16). He is an eternal Being as are also the Father and the Holy
Spirit (Psalm 90:1-2; Hebrews 9:14). They make the Divine Trinity (1 John 5:7).
Concerning
your relating Dake with the Ebionites. "Others, called the Ebionites,
maintained that Jesus was merely a man, a prophet, a spokesman for God, as were
the great Hebrew prophets of the past." Here again you have erred.
Dake disagreed with this
group as can be clearly seen in his note on 2 Corinthians 8:9 "If Jesus
Christ was a mere man, as some contend, in what sense was He rich and how could
He make many others rich by His poverty? His family was poor. He Himself
possessed no property from the manger to the cross. He died a poor man and was
buried in a borrowed grave. The answer to these questions would have to be that
He was and still is more than a mere man. He was God from all eternity (Micah
5:1-2; John 1:1-2). He created and owned the vast universes (Eph. 3:9; John
1:3; Col. 1:15-18). He laid aside His divine form and riches and took human
form to redeem. He became poor and died as man's substitute. He now saves all
who believe (John 3:16). They become heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ of
all God owns (Phil. 2:5-11; John 3:16; Romans 8:17-18; Col. 3:1-4; Rev. 1:5-6;
Rev. 5:10; Rev. 11:15; Rev. 22:4-5)."
Had you cared to look, you would have saw that
your comparing Dake with the Ebionites was ludicrous, as the Dake quote above
shows.
It also
might be noted that many of the "prosperity" preachers, that you are so critical
of, would never support the above statement by Dake concerning Jesus poverty
here on earth. It may be that you should also reexamine your relational beliefs
concerning modern Charismatic theology and the Dake teachings as well.
Pastor
Chambers you quote the Ebionites as
believing that " Jesus was the son of Joseph..." Again Pastor, you should
have read Dake's Luke 3:23 note which cries out against Jesus being the son of
Joseph. "As reckoned by law the son of
Joseph, but in reality He was the Son of God and Mary (Luke 1:35; Matthew
1:18-25)."
In regard to
you attempting to link Dake with those
who believe in dividing the natures of Christ, you state: "His two natures
cannot be divided." You are correct, the two natures of Christ cannot be
divided, but you have erred in thinking that Dake believes this heresy.
Dake wrote extensively concerning this error in "God's Plan for
Man" on page 372. Dake says: "Christ
constantly spoke of Himself as a single person and not as two persons in one.
There is no interchange of speech between the two natures as between two
persons. The attributes and powers of both natures are ascribed to the one
person so that they are operated as part of a single individual. There is no
double personality, but one single unit of characteristics of both the human and
the divine."
To make it even more
clear to even the most casual reader Dake says: "The above-indicated studies
on the divinity and humanity of Jesus Christ prove that He was a Divine-human
Being. The orthodox theory holds that the two natures of Christ were both
complete in themselves yet so organically and indissolubly united that no third
nature is formed thereby. It forbids us to divide the person and confound the
two natures of Jesus Christ. Being truly divine He is a true representative of
God, and being truly human He is a true representative of man."
Let's compare these
statements:
Rev. Chambers -
"His two natures cannot be divided."
Rev. Dake - "The
orthodox theory holds that the two natures of Christ were both complete in
themselves yet so organically and indissolubly united that no third nature is
formed thereby. It forbids us to divide the person and confound the two natures
of Jesus Christ."
If only you had studied Dake before you lifted your pen! There is no
relationship to the beliefs of Dake and the Gnostics as you have asserted. Had
you took the time to really study Dake's teachings, rather than listening to
those who do not know Dake's teachings, you no doubt would have had a different
view, and not have made this error in judgment.
As an example Pastor Chambers you tell a story of a rebellious
church member who believed that t "Jesus only became the anointed one at His
baptism and was not the divine Son of God until this point." You then go to
say: "I remember that the Dake's Bible had become his primary study Bible and
the arrogance that I now know was evident in Finis Dake had become evident in
this individual."
Once again you have erred. For nowhere in any of the Dake writings
do we find specifically or even remotely the idea that Jesus "was not the
divine Son of God until this point. (his baptism)" It is simply not there.
For you to associate the belief of a person who had erred in their Biblical
understanding, with that of Dake without a clear citation from the Dake
writings, is immoral and ignorant to say the least. And, if this be not the case
then may I challenge you to produce just one citation of Rev. Dake stating
that Jesus was not the son of God until his baptism. It will never
happen, because it does not exist.
You have
leveled attacks against Mr. Dake for his wonderful gift to know the Scriptures
by memory. It should be noted that Dake himself gave credit to God himself for
this ability and that no credit was taken personally. Even you acknowledge this
when you quote Dake saying: "I just quote a verse when I
need it, by the anointing of the Spirit."
You say this in "contrary to Scripture." Apparently you have never
read the words of Christ himself who said: "But when they deliver you up,
take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that
same hour what ye shall speak." (Matthew 10:19) See also: Mark 13:11 "But
when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye
shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in
that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost."
You continue that this gift: "puts Dake, at least in his mind, on the same
level as the Lord Jesus Christ." Now Pastor Chambers you are not only a bad
historian and Bible student concerning Dake theology, but you have now become a
mind reader! How could you possibly know what was in the mind of Finis Dake?
Absurd!
You site John 7:15 "And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth
this man letters, having never learned?" as an example of what God did in
and through Christ on earth. Could you not have continued your Bible reading for
a few chapters more? If so, you would have read John 14:12, where John gave us
the very words of Jesus Himself saying: "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He
that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works
than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father."
Do you believe this passage of Scripture? Did Jesus tell the truth
when he said that the works He did others would be able to do as well? Just who
are we to believe? I think we should all believe the Words of Jesus of course.
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6. Why would you take accounts of worldly
newspaper accounts and label a man by their insinuations, and treat the story as
"truth" when you have not interview others who were there, or Rev. Dake himself?
Is this really fair?
It seems that in an attempt to embarrass and cause disrespect to the
Dake writings, you give summaries of newspaper stories concerning a supposed
incident that took place in the mid 30's, which cast Rev. Dake in a bad light.
The truth of these stories cannot be verified at this date. But there are a
number of points in Mr. Dake's favor that can be known.
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1. Dake's wife believed in her husband, for she
continued to support him all the days of their life. Dake and his wife Dorothy
were married in 1925, that means that they enjoyed over 62 years of marriage,
prior to Rev. Dake's home-going in 1987.
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2. Dake's church supported and stood by him
during this incident.
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3. I have letters on file from 3 people who
where there, who say that because of this young ladies Catholic involvement,
this story was trumped up.
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4. Dake himself never let it effect
his ministry for the Lord.
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5. The Church of God allowed brother Dake to
join and hold ministerial ordination after this so-called incident.
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6. Finally no matter what happened,
if anything, Christ blood is able to forgive and release. Judging from the
remainder of Dake's ministry it is evident that he lived a life of faithfulness
and devotion to God and his Kingdom.
You first give a list of things Dake list as describing God. However
you leave out the Bible references proving this list. Let me give the list as it
is "really" found in the Dake Bible.
"He is a person with a
personal spirit body, a personal soul, and a personal spirit, like that of
angels, and like that of man except His body is of spirit substance instead of
flesh and bones (Job 13:8; Hebrews 1:3). He has a personal spirit body (Daniel
7:9-14; Daniel 10:5-19); shape (John 5:37); form (Phil. 2:5-7); image and
likeness of a man (Genesis 1:26; Genesis 9:6; Ezekiel 1:26-28; 1 Cor. 11:7;
James 3:9). He has physical parts such as, back parts (Exodus 33:23), heart
(Genesis 6:6; Genesis 8:21), hands and fingers (Psalm 8:3-6; Hebrews 1:10; Rev.
5:1-7), mouth (Numbers 12:8), lips and tongue (Isaiah 30:27), feet (Ezekiel
1:27; Exodus 24:10), eyes (Psalm 11:4; Psalm 18:24; Psalm 33:18), ears (Psalm
18:6), hair, head, face, arms (Daniel 7:9-14; Daniel 10:5-19; Rev. 5:1-7; Rev.
22:4-6), loins (Ezekiel 1:26-28; Ezekiel 8:1-4), and other physical parts. He
has bodily presence (Genesis 3:8; Genesis 18:1-22) and goes from place to place
in a body like all other persons (Genesis 3:8; Genesis 11:5; Genesis
18:1-5,22,33; Genesis 19:24; Genesis 32:24-32; Genesis 35:13; Zech. 14:5; Daniel
7:9-14; Titus 2:13). He has a voice (Psalm 29; Rev. 10:3-4); breath (Genesis
2:7); and countenance (Psalm 11:7). He wears clothes (Daniel 7:9-14; Daniel
10:5-19); eats (Genesis 18:1-8; Exodus 24:11); rests (Genesis 2:1-4; Hebrews
4:4); dwells in a mansion and in a city located on a material planet called
Heaven (John 14:1-3; Hebrews 11:10-16; Hebrews 13:14; Rev. 21); sits on a throne
(Isaiah 6; Daniel 7:9-14; Rev. 4:1-5; Rev. 22:3-6); walks (Genesis 3:8; Genesis
18:1-8,22,33); rides (Psalm 18:10; Psalm 68:17; Psalm 104:3; Ezekiel 1); and
engages in other activities.
He has a personal soul
with feelings of grief (Genesis 6:6), anger (1 Kings 11:9), repentance (Genesis
6:6), jealousy (Exodus 20:5), hate (Proverbs 6:16), love (John 3:16), pity
(Psalm 103:13), fellowship (1 John 1:1-7), pleasure and delight (Psalm 147:10),
and other soul passions like other beings (Galatians 5:22-23).
He has a personal spirit
(Psalm 143:10; Isaiah 30:1) with mind (Romans 11:34), intelligence (Genesis
1:26; Romans 11:33), will (Romans 8:27; Romans 9:19), power (Ephes. 1:19; Ephes.
3:7,20; Hebrews 1:3), truth (Psalm 91:4), faith and hope (Romans 12:3; 1 Cor.
13:13), righteousness (Psalm 45:4), faithfulness (1 Cor. 10:13), knowledge and
wisdom (Isaiah 11:2; 1 Tim. 1:17), reason (Isaiah 1:18), discernment (Hebrews
4:12), immutability (Hebrews 6:17), and many other attributes, powers, and
spirit faculties.
He has been seen
physically many times (Genesis 18; Genesis 32:24-30; Exodus 24:9-11; Joshua
5:13-15; Isaiah 6; Daniel 7:9-13; Ezekiel 1; Acts 7:56-59; Rev. 4-5), and can be
understood by the things that are made. Man is the visible image and likeness
making the invisible God clearly seen as in Romans 1:20. See Invisibility and
Anthropomorphism."
Tell me Pastor Chambers, why did you not give the Scripture
references which Dake gives in support of this list? Could it be that you would
be forced to agree with Dake? Lets take one as an example and see. p;
Dake told us concerning God:
He has image and likeness of a man (Genesis 1:26;) Genesis 1:26 And God
said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have
dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the
cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon
the earth. Pastor Chambers, Dake is simply stating what the Bible says about
God. If the Bible says that man was made in the image of God, then God must have
an image to be made after. Dake believed the Bible. Why don't you?
In addition: Many Bible writers say that they say God in bodily
form. Are they all liars?
In the book of Genesis alone we have over 10 appearances of God in
bodily form.
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1. Adam and Eve saw God in visible form after they had sinned, and hid
themselves from Him "amongst the trees of the garden" because "they heard the
voice of the Lord God walking in the garden" (Genesis 3:8-19). They couldn't
hide from God in His invisible presence, because it is everywhere.
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2. It is
clear from Genesis 11:5 that God appeared on earth at the time of the tower of
Babel, for it says, "the Lord came down to see the city and the tower."
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3. Abraham
was blessed with several appearances of God. The first recorded appearance is in
Genesis 12:7 which says, "the Lord appeared unto Abram."
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4. In
Genesis 17:1-22 "the Lord appeared to Abram ... and God went up from Abraham."
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5. In
Genesis 18:1 "the Lord appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre." Genesis 18:2
says Abraham saw three men standing by him. These proved to be the Lord and two
angels (Genesis 18:22; Genesis 19:1). Other statements in Genesis 18 prove a
visible appearance: "Let a little water be fetched ... and wash your feet"
(Genesis 18:4); "he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed,
and set it before them ... and they did eat" (Genesis 18:8); "the men rose up
from thence, and looked toward Sodom: and Abraham went with them to bring them
on the way" (Genesis 18:16); "the Lord said, Because the cry of Sodom and
Gomorrah is great ... I will go down now, and see" (Genesis 18:20-21); "Abraham
stood yet before the Lord. And Abraham drew near, and said" (Genesis 18:22-23);
"And the Lord went His way ... and Abraham returned unto his place" (Genesis
18:33)
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6. God
appeared to Isaac and confirmed the Abrahamic covenant with him, as is clear
from Genesis 26:2-4. Genesis 18:2 states, "the Lord appeared unto him."
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7. He
appeared again to Isaac, reminding him of the covenant (Genesis 26:24).
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8. He
appeared to Jacob and confirmed the Abrahamic covenant with him (Genesis
28:12-15 with Genesis 35:1).
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9. God
wrestled with Jacob bodily in Genesis 32:24-32. That this was a bodily
appearance of God is proven in Genesis 32:30: "I have seen God face to face, and
my life is preserved."
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10. Jacob
experienced another visible visitation of God in Genesis 35:9-15, "And God
appeared unto Jacob again."
In addition:
Seventy-four
leaders of Israel (including Moses and Aaron) saw God and ate with Him on Sinai
(Exodus 24:1-11).
Samuel saw
God. God appeared to Samuel and called him to be a prophet, as seen in 1 Samuel
3:10 which says, "the Lord came, and stood, and called." He appeared again to
Samuel, for 1 Samuel 3:21 says, "And the Lord appeared again in Shiloh"
Elijah saw
God. In 1 Kings 19:11-18 we see that Elijah saw the Lord when he stood "upon the
mount before the Lord. And, behold, the Lord passed by."
Job said he
saw God. God appeared to Job who said, "I have heard of Thee ... but now mine
eye seeth Thee" (Job 42:5).
Isaiah saw
God. God appeared to Isaiah in the temple, for in Isaiah 6 he testified, "I saw
also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and His train filled
the temple."
Amos saw
God. Amos declared in Amos 9:1, "I saw the Lord standing upon the altar."
Stephen saw
God. Acts 7:54-60 shows that Stephen saw "Jesus standing on the right hand of
God."
John saw God. John
saw both God and the glorified Christ in the reception of Revelation (Rev.
4:2-11; Rev. 5:1-13; Rev. 6:16; Rev. 7:9-17; Rev. 8:3-5; Rev. 11:16; Rev. 12:5;
Rev. 14:1-5; Rev. 19:1-10; Rev. 21:3-7; Rev. 22:1-5). In Rev. 1:10-18 we read of
an appearance of Christ, for in Rev. 1:11 John speaks of a voice saying, "I am
Alpha and Omega," and in Rev. 1:12-13 he says, "I turned to see the voice that
spake ... I saw seven golden candlesticks; and in the midst ... one like unto
the Son of man."
Besides the above
appearances the prophets saw God—His shape, His body (like that of a man), His
hair, eyes, and other bodily parts, His clothing, and His chariot throne drawn
by cherubim in visions. Ezekiel saw Him (Ezekiel 1:2-28; Ezekiel 8:1-4; Ezekiel
9:1-4; Ezekiel 10:1-5,7-22; Ezekiel
40:1-4,6,8-9,11,13-14,17,19,24,28,32,35,45,47-48; Ezekiel 41:1,4-5,13,15;
Ezekiel 42:1,13,15-20; Ezekiel 43:1-7); Daniel saw Him (Daniel 7:9-14; Daniel
10:5-9); and Zechariah saw Him (Zech. 1:8-20; Zech. 2:1-13; Zech. 3:1-2; Zech.
4:1-5; Zech. 5:2-5,10; Zech. 6:4-5).
So Pastor Chambers, who
are we to believe the Bible record of all these men who say they saw God or
modern theologians? I think the answer is a resounded: We will believe the Word
of God. I suggest that you believe as well.
As to the Mormon doctrine of God, lets clear
this up by looking at several of the defining teachings of Mormons.
From Decker's Handbook on Mormonism page 405 we read: "Mormons believe
that God the Father and God the Son are two separate gods." (Contrary to
this Dake says: “...the whole Bible abundantly proves that there are three
separate persons in the Godhead, or in the “one Lord” and “one God” or Deity;
that these three persons are in absolute unity and “are one”... God’s plan
page 500.) "The Godhead is like the presidency of the church: a president
and two counselors. God the Father being the president and the Son and Holy
Spirit are His two counselors." (Contrary to this Dake says “Equality
with God in Divinity is definitely stated John 5:19-29; Philippians 2:5-11."
God’s Plan page 371.) "They regard the Trinity as a pagan heresy."
(Contrary to this Dake gives over 500 scriptures proving the Trinity to be
Biblical. God’s Plan page 498-500)
Scott in her book the Mormon Mirage page 169 writes: " ...the Mormon
God has a body of flesh and bones. Mormons teach that He looks like a man, as
indeed, He once was." (Doctrines and Covenants 130:22.) "God is a natural
man." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 8, page 211) "God was once a man in
mortal flesh." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, page 333)" (Contrary to this
Dake teaches that God has a “spirit” body, not flesh and blood. God’s Plan page
56-57. and Dake teaches that God is not flesh and blood. Dake's Annotated
Reference Bible, Matthew 16:17 notes I and j.)
So as you can see Pastor Chambers, Dake is not in agreement with
Mormon theology. Your attempt to associate him with them is simply a display of
your ignorance concerning Dake, and an attempt to put down Dake by associating
him with the Mormon cult.
Pastor Chambers you made this statement in reference to a quote of
Kenneth Copeland. You then say that you "presume that this is where Kenneth
Copeland got his Mormon doctrine of God" insinuating that Rev. Copeland got it
from the Dake Bible. That being the case, as you assume, then where? what page?
what paragraph? which sentence in any of the Dake writings is this quote found?
It is very simple, just produce the quote? I will be
waiting......
Ok time is up. You have not found the quote because it is not there.
I would suggest a retraction is in order.
You make this statement on page 3, column 2 of
your article. Might I state that the Bible records at least 30 things that God
has limited himself on.
-
1. He cannot break His
own laws (Psalm 119:89).
-
2. He cannot lie
(Hebrews 6:17-19).
-
3. He cannot deny
Himself (2 Tim. 2:13).
-
4. He cannot have
respect of persons (Romans 2:11; James 2:9-10).
-
5. He cannot save one
soul apart from grace and faith in Christ (Romans 3:26; John 3:16).
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6. He cannot be
unrighteous (Romans 9:14).
-
7. He cannot bless men
apart from faith (Hebrews 11:6; James 1:5-8).
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8. He cannot curse men
when they meet His terms (1 John 1:9).
-
9. He cannot do away
with or change His own eternal plan (Acts 15:18; Ephes. 2:7; Ephes. 3:11).
-
10. He cannot save
rebels who persist in rebellion, refusing to meet His terms (Proverbs 1:22-33;
Proverbs 29:1; Matthew 18:3; John 3:3,5).
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11. He cannot be tempted
with evil (James 1:13-15).
-
12. He cannot tolerate
hypocrisy (Isaiah 1:13).
-
13. He cannot spare
Himself or Christ in the redemption of the human race from eternal hell (Matthew
27:42).
-
14. He cannot turn down
one soul that comes to Him according to His terms (John 6:37).
-
15. He cannot judge the
righteous with the wicked (Genesis 19:22; Rev. 20:5-6,11-15).
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16. He cannot fail to
answer prayer when unwavering faith is exercised (Matthew 17:20; Matthew 21:22;
Mark 11:22-24; John 14:12-15; John 15:7,16; John 16:23-26; Hebrews 11:6; James
1:5-8).
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17. He cannot forgive
one un-confessed sin (Luke 13:1-5; 1 John 1:9).
-
18. He cannot keep one
saved who lives in sin (Romans 8:12-13; Galatians 5:19-21; Galatians 6:7-8).
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19. He cannot
automatically cancel the death penalty when people sin and incur that penalty
(Ezekiel 18:4; Romans 16-23; Romans 8:1-13).
-
20. He cannot do away
with free moral agency and moral responsibility (Romans 6:16-23; Romans 8:1-13;
Galatians 5:19-21; 1 John 1:7).
-
21. He cannot make one a
slave to Himself so that he can never go back into sin if he chooses (Romans
6:16-23; Romans 8:1-13; Hebrews 6:4-9; Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 John 1:7).
-
22. He cannot guarantee
that every saved man will continue in Christ (John 15:1-8; Romans 6:16-23;
Romans 8:12-13; 1 Cor. 3:16-17; 1 Cor. 6:19-20; 1 Cor. 9:27; Galatians 1:6-8;
Galatians 5:4; Exodus 32:32-33; Ezekiel 33:12-20).
-
23. He cannot make any
man a son of God in the same sense Jesus is (John 1:18; John 3:16; Romans
8:14-16).
-
24. He cannot look upon
the sins of the saved as being unreal, or deal with them on a different basis
from those of the unsaved (Romans 6:16-23; Romans 8:12-13; 1 Cor. 6:9-11;
Galatians 5:19-21; Galatians 6:7-8).
-
25. He cannot cancel any
reaping for what is sown (Romans 8:12-13; Galatians 6:7-8).
-
26. He cannot force a
man to serve Him against his own will (John 3:16; John 7:17; John 8:34; 1 Tim.
2:4; 2 Peter 3:9; 1 John 1:7; Rev. 22:17).
-
27. He cannot recognize
any man as His child or His servant who serves sin and the devil (Matthew 6:24;
Romans 6:16-23; Romans 8:1-13; 1 Cor. 3:16-17; Galatians 5:19-21; 1 John
3:8-10).
-
28. He cannot keep the
saved from sin if he chooses to go back into sin (Romans 6:16-23; Romans 8:1-13;
1 Cor. 3:16-17; 1 Cor. 6:9-10,19-20; Hebrews 6:4-9; Hebrews 10:26-29; James
5:19-20; 1 John 2:1-2; Ezekiel 33:12-20).
-
29. He cannot keep one
from incurring the death penalty should he go back into sin (Exodus 32:32-33;
Ezekiel 18:4; Ezekiel 33:12-20; Romans 6:16-23; Romans 8:12-13; 1 Cor. 6:9-10;
Galatians 5:19-21; Galatians 6:7-8; Hebrews 6:4-9; Hebrews 10:26-29; James
5:19-20).
-
30. He cannot be lenient
with any who sin or encourage anarchy in moral government (Genesis 2:17; Ezekiel
18:4; Ezekiel 33:12-20; Romans 1:18-31; Romans 5:12-21; Romans 6:16-23; Romans
8:1-13; Galatians 5:19-21; Galatians 6:7-8; James 5:19-20).
Now of course God is omnipotent. On this Dake
agrees. On his note to Psalms 14:1 he says: "Omnipotence
(all powerful, Rev. 19:6). God can do all things consistent with His nature and
plan, but He cannot lie or act contrary to Himself and the best good of all."
You make the
statement on page 4, column 1: "Why would someone
reduce God down to the level of men just because God speaks of Himself with
words on our level?"
The insinuation you have made is false and clearly shows your
ignorance of the Dake writings. I challenge you to produce one statement
where Dake "reduces God down to the level of men..." Again, it is not there
and can't be found.
The very quote you use by Dake to support your misguided contention
proves your statement to be false. You quoted Dake as saying: "Truly He is not only all that men, angels, and other beings are in
this respect, but infinitely greater in everything;"
Here in this statement Dake does not bring God down to man's level
but says that God is "infinitely greater than everything." I hate to say
this, but dear brother can you read? Of course you can. My question then is why
would you write what you do when you know it to be false?
You also stated that Dake's statement laid the foundation for the
"little gods" teaching. You said: : "His promoting of God as man with all the
human attributes, combined with the idea of us as miniature Gods, has been
stretched to the present deception of men as "little gods."
Well once again you have not read what Dake
said. Dake never said that man was a miniature of God but:
"and man in reality is simply a miniature of
God in attributes and powers." Notice a miniature of God IN
ATTRIBUTES AND POWERS, not just a miniature of God. You once again have read
into Dake what was not there. All would agree with this statement I am sure.
Let's ask David the Psalmist. Psalm 8:3-5 When I consider thy heavens, the
work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; What is
man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with
glory and honour.
Does this not teach man to be like heavenly
beings only lower thus, very limited? Of course man is not God and never will
be. On his commentary note to Isaiah 40:22 Dake says: "The
idea is that God sits so far above the round earth that men look like mere
grasshoppers or locusts. This is a striking illustration of man's
insignificance as God sees him from the heavens." No one can read
this statement and even begin to think that Dake brings God down to the level of
man. But we now know that you did not read this statement, for your knowledge of
the Dake writings is not based upon knowledge of the subject, but ignorance.
You make this state in the last issue you bring up concerning the
emptying of Christ. This has already been discussed in the first part of this
letter so I want go into again here. In this paragraph you state: Dake either
did not understand the above or he willingly rejected it. I would encourage you
to read d God's Plan for Man pages 384-390. Here Dake devotes a large
portion of this book to this subject. You will find when you read it that your
beliefs and Dake's are in agreement.
In the next to last paragraph of your article
you state: "I have tapes in my library with Crouch and Copeland on a TBN
broadcast stating that Jesus never claimed to be God. Those quotes sound almost
like a word for word expression right out of the Dake's Bible."
Pastor Chambers do you realize you are guilty of
libel. You have quoted Crouch and Copeland but you have not quoted Dake. I
challenge you, point out one quote in any of the Dake writings where Dake states
that "Jesus never claimed to be God. Those quotes sound almost
like a word for word expression right out of the Dake's Bible." According to
you it must be easy to do. After all, you say it is word for word. Then
Pastor Chambers produce the words..... If not then admit your ignorance and
repent for slandering a man's good name.
My dear friend Pastor Chambers. I have followed your ministry for
several years now. Over these years I have been blessed and then there have been
times of disagreement. But on this issue of Dake. May I say as kindly as I know
how, you really just don't know what you are talking about. Anyone who has
studied Dake can easily see that. I call upon you to take the Dake Bible off
the shelf and check out all these "nutty" statements you have made. I pray for
you and trust you will do the right thing.
May I also say that I realize I have made some pretty bold
statements. I was going to let some of these things go by, but I could not. I
respect you as a servant of Lord and the years of service you have given to the
cause of Christ. So please know that while we would have many disagreements
here, I would not be ashamed to call you my brother in Christ. In fact I believe
that you are going to be honest, and do the right thing, and print a retraction
in your newsletter to clear up this erred teaching you have allowed to go forth.
I pray God blessings into your life,
Leon Bible
leon@ministryhelps.com
www.dakebible.com
www.dakebibleboard.com
Note: This
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Send an email addressed to
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If you would like to
read the Chambers article this letter is based upon
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