An Open Letter to Pastor Joseph
Chambers
Author of an Article Entitled
"Confused Charismatic Theology and the Dake's Bible"
September 19, 1999
Pastor Joseph Chambers
Paw Creek Ministries
5110 Tuckaseegee Road
Charlotte, NC 28208
pawcreek@pawcreek.org
Dear Pastor Chambers,
On August 18, 1999 I received your newsletter entitled "The End Times
and Victorious Living." On the front page of this newsletter there
was an article called: "Confused Charismatic Theology and the Dake's
Bible." In reading this article it seems that you have written about
something which you know very little about. Believing that you are a man
of integrity and honor I would like to point out several problems with the
piece and also ask a few questions if you would permit me.
1. Why did you write an article about which you have no knowledge of?
Pastor Chambers you stated in the first paragraph: "Many years ago,
I became leery of the Dake's Bible, but never really understood why."
This statement sets the tone for the rest of your article. You are correct
when you make the statement "I never understood..." And, it is
even clearer from the rest of the article, that you still do not understand
the notes of the Dake Bible. Pastor Chambers you said: "I basically
quit using the Dake's Bible about twenty years ago and simply put it on
the shelf; that you "moved away from" the Dake Bible; "I never
used it much."
The question becomes how Pastor Chambers, have you become such a scholar,
able to point out so-called problems with a Bible, which by your own admission,
you have "never really understood," "put away 20 years ago," "moved
away from," and finally "never used much?"
To the honest and sincere student of God's Word it is clear that you are
embarking upon a discussion of which you are completely ignorant about.
Scripture is against this type of criticism. We are to "know them which
labour among you," (1 The. 5:12) Jesus said to "neither accuse
any falsely;" (Luke 3:14) Proverbs makes it quite clear that: "He
that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto
him." (Proverbs 18:13)
2. Why do you make associations with ministers that you feel are held
in disrespect with Rev. Dake?
Are you attempting to prove guilt by association? Are we not to judge every
man by his own actions, words and deeds? You made the statement: "Let
me give you one Scripture that is foundational to what Hagin, Copeland,
Hinn, Crouch, etc. are now teaching around the world." At the very
onset of this article it appears that you are attempting to "set up"
Dake by using the "guilt by association" argument. Statements such
as these psychologically pre-dispose the reader to be negative to the Dake
teachings without even knowing what they are. Again in on page 2 column
3 you write: "The doctrines of Hagin, Copeland, Crouch, and Hinn, etc,
are clearly associated with this heresy. Paul Crouch, in a statement to
Benny Hinn on TBN, stated that Jesus received His divinity back when He
ascended out of hell after being born again." Pastor Chambers, Dake's
teaching should stand on its own, being judged by the Word of God. What
ever any other minister may say are write, they are to be judged for, NOT
Dake.
But, since you have made this association let me challenge you.
I challenge you to find one place in Dake Bible or any other of
his writings where Dake says that: "Jesus received His divinity back
when He ascended out of hell after being born again." It is not there.
Not one time. Yet you have given your readers the false impression that
Crouch got this doctrine from Dake. Scripture says that: "So then every
one of us shall give account of himself to God." (Romans 14:12) Dake's
teachings are to stand solely on what Dake has said, not what others say
he said.
3. Why do you criticize Dake and associate him with "adoptionist" when
in truth your views as a Pentecostal are completely in line with Dake's
teaching on the anointing of Jesus?
In your criticism of Dake you quote a Matthew 1:1 note of Dake's concerning
Matthew's use of the word Christ in reference to Jesus. As you know Matthew
1:1 reads: "The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David,
the son of Abraham." Your citation of Dake's note is as follows:
"Like the name "Jesus" it has no reference to deity, but to the humanity
of the Son of God, who became the Christ or the "Anointed One" 30 years
after He was born of Mary. God "made" Him both Lord and Christ. The Hebrew
is Messiah. Then, you write: "No Biblically solid minister or Bible
student would accept the quote above. It is rank heresy and must be totally
rejected or our view of Jesus Christ as the eternal Son of God is compromised.
To suggest that Jesus became the Christ or the "Anointed One" thirty years
after His birth is to commit heresy."
First off, Pastor Chambers you have failed to consult the Bible on this
issue. It is very simple. Dake believes that Jesus who was in the form of
God, laid aside this status are at least the use of it, in order to become
a man, (the incarnation) come to this earth, live a life of sinless perfection,
and die on the cross as the Son of God for our sins; so that we might have
redemption and freedom from sin and death. This is stated by Paul in
Philippians 2:6-8 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery
to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him
the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found
in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death,
even the death of the cross.
Like Dake, Pastor Chambers you also believe this as is shown by your
"caption statement" on page 1 of your newsletter. You say: "The
Son of God did indeed empty Himself to become the Son of Man. What is extremely
important is that this emptying was not a forsaking of His eternal essence,
but an emptying of manifesting that essence. He was never void of His divine
essence, but He did limit Himself not to express it while depending wholly
on His Father and the Holy Spirit."
Had you bothered to take the time to study Dake, you would have read on
page 386, of "God's Plan for Man," by Rev. Dake: "The true
Biblical teaching of the kenosis of Christ is that in taking human form
He divested Himself of His divine attributes, or at least power to use them,
having laid aside His God-form and voluntarily given up His glory which
He had with the Father before the world was and become limited in knowledge,
wisdom, power, glory, and in every way that man was, and that He retained
His deity or His divine nature. The Bible further teaches that He was made
of a woman without a human father and was, therefore, free from the fallen
human nature that came through Adam and His male descendants (Luke 1:32-35;
Rom. 8:3; Gal. 4:4). It could not be that Christ laid aside His divine nature,
for then He would cease being God. Paul did not say He ceased being God,
but that He laid aside His God-form and emptied Himself of everything that
would hinder Him from being a true and real human being and "in all things"
like His brethren (Heb. 2:9-18)."
Lets compare these statements:
Rev. Chambers - "What is extremely important is that this emptying was
not a forsaking of His eternal essence, but an emptying of manifesting that
essence. He was never void of His divine essence,..."
Rev. Dake - "and that He retained His deity or His divine nature. It
could not be that Christ laid aside His divine nature, for then He would
cease being God."
Rev. Chambers it is clear for all to see that you agree with Dake on this
subject, and yet you did not even know it. Also see Dake's statements found
on God's Plan for Man page 389, under the heading: What Does Our
Lord's "Kenosis" Teach Us? It Teaches:
- 1. That Christ was always divine (Micah 5:1-2; John 1:1-3).
- 2. That He could not cease being God in nature (I Tim. 3:16).
- 3. That He retained His divinity when becoming incarnate in flesh
(Matt. 1:23) .
- 4. That He was truly human as well as divine and lived while on
Earth a normal and perfect human life as an example to all men who desire
to please God ( l Pet. 2:21).
- 5. That in so doing He laid aside His natural and divine attributes
or at least limited their use, and became a perfect example of yieldedness
to God and His Spirit to overcome the world, the flesh, and the devil
(Heb. 10:5-9; Acts 10:38).
Pastor Chambers, is their even one of the above 5 statements that you
disagree with. I think not. Yet, you have found yourself to be at odds with
Dake theology, not based on what Dake has written, but what you think others
have said about what they think Dake has written. My dear brother you have
erred greatly.
Now that being said, Dake also believes that Jesus living "as a man"
(as an example to you and I) needed to be baptized (or anointed) by the
Holy Ghost. Acts 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy
Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were
oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
All Dake is saying in the Matthew 1:1 note is that Jesus the Son of God
received His anointing at the time of Spirit baptism. See: Matthew 3:16
And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and,
lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending
like a dove, and lighting upon him:
Jesus Himself testified to being baptized in the Holy Spirit. Mark 10:38-39
But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup
that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?
And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed
drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized
withal shall ye be baptized:
John the apostle testified of Jesus as receiving the baptism in the Spirit.
John 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth
not the Spirit by measure unto him.
Now with this understanding, lets look at the meaning of the word Christ.
Strong's tells us that the word used for Christ in Matthew 1:1 is "Christos"
and it means: "anointed, i.e. the Messiah, an epithet of Jesus :- Christ"
So then the question may be asked when was Jesus the "son of man"
anointed with the Holy Ghost? Remember Acts 10:38 says: "How God anointed
Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power:" The answer is
obvious to everyone. At the baptism by John in the river Jordan. Matthew
3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water:
and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God
descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
Now we see what Dake was talking about. NOT that Jesus became God at the
baptism, or even the son of God, but that he was anointed at the baptism
for His earthly mission. And yes, it is perfectly proper and correct to
say that Jesus was anointed at the baptism. And, if we were speaking Greek
we would also be speaking properly to say that Jesus became the "Christ"
(Greek word for anointing) at the baptism experience. In fact, Pastor Chambers,
you yourself say in column 3, page 2, that Jesus was "anointed of the
Holy Ghost."
Had you bothered to really read the Dake Bible, rather than placing it on
the shelf, you would have read that Dake fully and completely believes in
Jesus as God and a full member of the Trinity and in existence before the
time of His coming to earth. See John 1:1 note where Dake states: "The
Word refers to Christ (John 1:14; Rev. 19:13) and proves His pre-existence
(Micah 5:1-2; Rev. 1:8,11; Rev. 2:8; Rev. 22:13-16). He is an eternal Being
as are also the Father and the Holy Spirit (Psalm 90:1-2; Hebrews 9:14).
They make the Divine Trinity (1 John 5:7)."
Concerning your relating Dake with the Ebionites. "Others, called the
Ebionites, maintained that Jesus was merely a man, a prophet, a spokesman
for God, as were the great Hebrew prophets of the past." Here again
you have erred.
Dake disagreed with this group as can be clearly seen in his note on 2 Corinthians
8:9 "If Jesus Christ was a mere man, as some contend, in what sense
was He rich and how could He make many others rich by His poverty? His family
was poor. He Himself possessed no property from the manger to the cross.
He died a poor man and was buried in a borrowed grave. The answer to these
questions would have to be that He was and still is more than a mere man.
He was God from all eternity (Micah 5:1-2; John 1:1-2). He created and owned
the vast universes (Eph. 3:9; John 1:3; Col. 1:15-18). He laid aside His
divine form and riches and took human form to redeem. He became poor and
died as man's substitute. He now saves all who believe (John 3:16). They
become heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ of all God owns (Phil. 2:5-11;
John 3:16; Romans 8:17-18; Col. 3:1-4; Rev. 1:5-6; Rev. 5:10; Rev. 11:15;
Rev. 22:4-5)."
Had you cared to look, you would have saw that your comparing Dake with
the Ebionites was ludicrous, as the Dake quote above shows.
It also might be noted that many of the "prosperity" preachers,
that you are so critical of, would never support the above statement by
Dake concerning Jesus poverty here on earth. It may be that you should also
reexamine your relational beliefs concerning modern Charismatic theology
and the Dake teachings as well.
Pastor Chambers you quote the Ebionites as believing that " Jesus was
the son of Joseph..." Again Pastor, you should have read Dake's Luke
3:23 note which cries out against Jesus being the son of Joseph. "As
reckoned by law the son of Joseph, but in reality He was the Son of God
and Mary (Luke 1:35; Matthew 1:18-25)."
In regard to you attempting to link Dake with those who believe in dividing
the natures of Christ, you state: "His two natures cannot be divided."
You are correct, the two natures of Christ cannot be divided, but you have
erred in thinking that Dake believes this heresy.
Dake wrote extensively concerning this error in "God's Plan for Man"
on page 372. Dake says: "Christ constantly spoke of Himself as a single
person and not as two persons in one. There is no interchange of speech
between the two natures as between two persons. The attributes and powers
of both natures are ascribed to the one person so that they are operated
as part of a single individual. There is no double personality, but one
single unit of characteristics of both the human and the divine."
To make it even more clear to even the most casual reader Dake says:
"The above-indicated studies on the divinity and humanity of Jesus Christ
prove that He was a Divine-human Being. The orthodox theory holds that the
two natures of Christ were both complete in themselves yet so organically
and indissolubly united that no third nature is formed thereby. It forbids
us to divide the person and confound the two natures of Jesus Christ. Being
truly divine He is a true representative of God, and being truly human He
is a true representative of man."
Let's compare these statements:
Rev. Chambers - "His two natures cannot be divided."
Rev. Dake - "The orthodox theory holds that the two natures of Christ
were both complete in themselves yet so organically and indissolubly united
that no third nature is formed thereby. It forbids us to divide the person
and confound the two natures of Jesus Christ."
If only you had studied Dake before you lifted your pen! There is no relationship
to the beliefs of Dake and the Gnostics as you have asserted. Had you took
the time to really study Dake's teachings, rather than listening to those
who do not know Dake's teachings, you no doubt would have had a different
view, and not have made this error in judgment.
4. Why do you criticize Dake for something said by an erring brother,
when Dake should only be judged on the basis of what he has written, taught
and believed?
As an example Pastor Chambers you tell a story of a rebellious church member
who believed that t "Jesus only became the anointed one at His baptism
and was not the divine Son of God until this point." You then go to
say: "I remember that the Dake's Bible had become his primary study
Bible and the arrogance that I now know was evident in Finis Dake had become
evident in this individual."
Once again you have erred. For nowhere in any of the Dake writings do we
find specifically or even remotely the idea that Jesus "was not the
divine Son of God until this point. (his baptism)" It is simply not
there. For you to associate the belief of a person who had erred in their
Biblical understanding, with that of Dake without a clear citation from
the Dake writings, is immoral and ignorant to say the least. And, if this
be not the case then may I challenge you to produce just one citation of
Rev. Dake stating that Jesus was not the son of God until his baptism. It
will never happen, because it does not exist.
5. Why do criticize Dake for receiving a gift from God?
You have leveled attacks against Mr. Dake for his wonderful gift to know
the Scriptures by memory. It should be noted that Dake himself gave credit
to God himself for this ability and that no credit was taken personally.
Even you acknowledge this when you quote Dake saying: "I just quote
a verse when I need it, by the anointing of the Spirit."
You say this in "contrary to Scripture." Apparently you have never
read the words of Christ himself who said: "But when they deliver you
up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you
in that same hour what ye shall speak." (Matthew 10:19) See also:
Mark 13:11 "But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no
thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever
shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak,
but the Holy Ghost." You continue that this gift: "puts Dake, at
least in his mind, on the same level as the Lord Jesus Christ." Now
Pastor Chambers you are not only a bad historian and Bible student concerning
Dake theology, but you have now become a mind reader! How could you possibly
know what was in the mind of Finis Dake? Absurd!
You site John 7:15 "And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this
man letters, having never learned?" as an example of what God did in
and through Christ on earth. Could you not have continued your Bible reading
for a few chapters more? If so, you would have read John 14:12, where John
gave us the very words of Jesus Himself saying: "Verily, verily, I say
unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also;
and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father."
Do you believe this passage of Scripture? Did Jesus tell the truth when
he said that the works He did others would be able to do as well? Just who
are we to believe? I think we should all believe the Words of Jesus of course.
6. Why would you take accounts of worldly newspaper accounts and label
a man by their insinuations, and treat the story as "truth" when you have
not interview others who were there, or Rev. Dake himself? Is this really
fair?
It seems that in an attempt to embarrass and cause disrespect to the Dake
writings, you give summaries of newspaper stories concerning a supposed
incident that took place in the mid 30's, which cast Rev. Dake in a bad
light. The truth of these stories cannot be verified at this date. But there
are a number of points in Mr. Dake's favor that can be known.
- 1. Dake's wife believed in her husband, for she continued to support
him all the days of their life. Dake and his wife Dorothy were married
in 1925, that means that they enjoyed over 62 years of marriage, prior
to Rev. Dake's home-going in 1987.
- 2. Dake's church supported and stood by him during this incident.
- 3. I have letters on file from 3 people who where there, who say
that because of this young ladies Catholic involvement, this story was
trumped up.
- 4. Dake himself never let it effect his ministry for the Lord.
- 5. The Church of God allowed brother Dake to join and hold ministerial
ordination after this so-called incident.
- 6. Finally no matter what happened, if anything, Christ blood is
able to forgive and release. Judging from the remainder of Dake's ministry
it is evident that he lived a life of faithfulness and devotion to God
and his Kingdom.
7. Why do you make an attempt to associate Dake with Mormonism as a
division in your article, yet you give no citations from Mormon teaching
or Dake teaching to substantiate your unfounded belief.
You first give a list of things Dake list as describing God. However you
leave out the Bible references proving this list. Let me give the list as
it is "really" found in the Dake Bible.
"He is a person with a personal spirit body, a personal soul, and a
personal spirit, like that of angels, and like that of man except His body
is of spirit substance instead of flesh and bones (Job 13:8; Hebrews 1:3).
He has a personal spirit body (Daniel 7:9-14; Daniel 10:5-19); shape (John
5:37); form (Phil. 2:5-7); image and likeness of a man (Genesis 1:26; Genesis
9:6; Ezekiel 1:26-28; 1 Cor. 11:7; James 3:9). He has physical parts such
as, back parts (Exodus 33:23), heart (Genesis 6:6; Genesis 8:21), hands
and fingers (Psalm 8:3-6; Hebrews 1:10; Rev. 5:1-7), mouth (Numbers 12:8),
lips and tongue (Isaiah 30:27), feet (Ezekiel 1:27; Exodus 24:10), eyes
(Psalm 11:4; Psalm 18:24; Psalm 33:18), ears (Psalm 18:6), hair, head, face,
arms (Daniel 7:9-14; Daniel 10:5-19; Rev. 5:1-7; Rev. 22:4-6), loins (Ezekiel
1:26-28; Ezekiel 8:1-4), and other physical parts. He has bodily presence
(Genesis 3:8; Genesis 18:1-22) and goes from place to place in a body like
all other persons (Genesis 3:8; Genesis 11:5; Genesis 18:1-5,22,33; Genesis
19:24; Genesis 32:24-32; Genesis 35:13; Zech. 14:5; Daniel 7:9-14; Titus
2:13). He has a voice (Psalm 29; Rev. 10:3-4); breath (Genesis 2:7); and
countenance (Psalm 11:7). He wears clothes (Daniel 7:9-14; Daniel 10:5-19);
eats (Genesis 18:1-8; Exodus 24:11); rests (Genesis 2:1-4; Hebrews 4:4);
dwells in a mansion and in a city located on a material planet called Heaven
(John 14:1-3; Hebrews 11:10-16; Hebrews 13:14; Rev. 21); sits on a throne
(Isaiah 6; Daniel 7:9-14; Rev. 4:1-5; Rev. 22:3-6); walks (Genesis 3:8;
Genesis 18:1-8,22,33); rides (Psalm 18:10; Psalm 68:17; Psalm 104:3; Ezekiel
1); and engages in other activities.
He has a personal soul with feelings of grief (Genesis 6:6), anger (1
Kings 11:9), repentance (Genesis 6:6), jealousy (Exodus 20:5), hate (Proverbs
6:16), love (John 3:16), pity (Psalm 103:13), fellowship (1 John 1:1-7),
pleasure and delight (Psalm 147:10), and other soul passions like other
beings (Galatians 5:22-23).
He has a personal spirit (Psalm 143:10; Isaiah 30:1) with mind (Romans 11:34),
intelligence (Genesis 1:26; Romans 11:33), will (Romans 8:27; Romans 9:19),
power (Ephes. 1:19; Ephes. 3:7,20; Hebrews 1:3), truth (Psalm 91:4), faith
and hope (Romans 12:3; 1 Cor. 13:13), righteousness (Psalm 45:4), faithfulness
(1 Cor. 10:13), knowledge and wisdom (Isaiah 11:2; 1 Tim. 1:17), reason
(Isaiah 1:18), discernment (Hebrews 4:12), immutability (Hebrews 6:17),
and many other attributes, powers, and spirit faculties.
He has been seen physically many times (Genesis 18; Genesis 32:24-30; Exodus
24:9-11; Joshua 5:13-15; Isaiah 6; Daniel 7:9-13; Ezekiel 1; Acts 7:56-59;
Rev. 4-5), and can be understood by the things that are made. Man is the
visible image and likeness making the invisible God clearly seen as in Romans
1:20. See Invisibility and Anthropomorphism."
Tell me Pastor Chambers, why did you not give the Scripture references which
Dake gives in support of this list? Could it be that you would be forced
to agree with Dake? Lets take one as an example and see. Dake told us concerning
God: He has image and likeness of a man (Genesis 1:26;) Genesis 1:26
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let
them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air,
and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing
that creepeth upon the earth. Pastor Chambers, Dake is simply stating
what the Bible says about God. If the Bible says that man was made in the
image of God, then God must have an image to be made after. Dake believed
the Bible. Why don't you?
In addition: Many Bible writers say that they say God in bodily form. Are
they all liars?
In the book of Genesis alone we have over 10 appearances of God in bodily
form.
- 1. Adam and Eve saw God in visible form after they had sinned, and
hid themselves from Him "amongst the trees of the garden" because
"they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden"
(Genesis 3:8-19). They couldn't hide from God in His invisible presence,
because it is everywhere.
- 2. It is clear from Genesis 11:5 that God appeared on earth at the
time of the tower of Babel, for it says, "the Lord came down to
see the city and the tower."
- 3. Abraham was blessed with several appearances of God. The first
recorded appearance is in Genesis 12:7 which says, "the Lord appeared
unto Abram."
- 4. In Genesis 17:1-22 "the Lord appeared to Abram ... and God
went up from Abraham."
- 5. In Genesis 18:1 "the Lord appeared unto him in the plains
of Mamre." Genesis 18:2 says Abraham saw three men standing by
him. These proved to be the Lord and two angels (Genesis 18:22; Genesis
19:1). Other statements in Genesis 18 prove a visible appearance:
"Let a little water be fetched ... and wash your feet" (Genesis
18:4); "he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed,
and set it before them ... and they did eat" (Genesis 18:8);
"the men rose up from thence, and looked toward Sodom: and Abraham
went with them to bring them on the way" (Genesis 18:16); "the
Lord said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great ... I will
go down now, and see" (Genesis 18:20-21); "Abraham stood yet
before the Lord. And Abraham drew near, and said" (Genesis 18:22-23);
"And the Lord went His way ... and Abraham returned unto his place"
(Genesis 18:33)
- 6. God appeared to Isaac and confirmed the Abrahamic covenant with
him, as is clear from Genesis 26:2-4. Genesis 18:2 states, "the
Lord appeared unto him."
- 7. He appeared again to Isaac, reminding him of the covenant (Genesis
26:24).
- 8. He appeared to Jacob and confirmed the Abrahamic covenant with
him (Genesis 28:12-15 with Genesis 35:1).
- 9. God wrestled with Jacob bodily in Genesis 32:24-32. That this
was a bodily appearance of God is proven in Genesis 32:30: "I have
seen God face to face, and my life is preserved."
- 10. Jacob experienced another visible visitation of God in Genesis
35:9-15, "And God appeared unto Jacob again."
In addition:
- Seventy-four leaders of Israel (including Moses and Aaron) saw God
and ate with Him on Sinai (Exodus 24:1-11).
- Samuel saw God. God appeared to Samuel and called him to be a prophet,
as seen in 1 Samuel 3:10 which says, "the Lord came, and stood,
and called." He appeared again to Samuel, for 1 Samuel 3:21 says,
"And the Lord appeared again in Shiloh"
- Elijah saw God. In 1 Kings 19:11-18 we see that Elijah saw the Lord
when he stood "upon the mount before the Lord. And, behold, the
Lord passed by."
- Job said he saw God. God appeared to Job who said, "I have heard
of Thee ... but now mine eye seeth Thee" (Job 42:5).
- Isaiah saw God. God appeared to Isaiah in the temple, for in Isaiah
6 he testified, "I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high
and lifted up, and His train filled the temple."
- Amos saw God. Amos declared in Amos 9:1, "I saw the Lord standing
upon the altar."
- Stephen saw God. Acts 7:54-60 shows that Stephen saw "Jesus
standing on the right hand of God."
- John saw God. John saw both God and the glorified Christ in the
reception of Revelation (Rev. 4:2-11; Rev. 5:1-13; Rev. 6:16; Rev. 7:9-17;
Rev. 8:3-5; Rev. 11:16; Rev. 12:5; Rev. 14:1-5; Rev. 19:1-10; Rev. 21:3-7;
Rev. 22:1-5). In Rev. 1:10-18 we read of an appearance of Christ, for
in Rev. 1:11 John speaks of a voice saying, "I am Alpha and Omega,"
and in Rev. 1:12-13 he says, "I turned to see the voice that spake
... I saw seven golden candlesticks; and in the midst ... one like unto
the Son of man."
- Besides the above appearances the prophets saw God—His shape, His
body (like that of a man), His hair, eyes, and other bodily parts, His
clothing, and His chariot throne drawn by cherubim in visions. Ezekiel
saw Him (Ezekiel 1:2-28; Ezekiel 8:1-4; Ezekiel 9:1-4; Ezekiel 10:1-5,7-22;
Ezekiel 40:1-4,6,8-9,11,13-14,17,19,24,28,32,35,45,47-48; Ezekiel 41:1,4-5,13,15;
Ezekiel 42:1,13,15-20; Ezekiel 43:1-7); Daniel saw Him (Daniel 7:9-14;
Daniel 10:5-9); and Zechariah saw Him (Zech. 1:8-20; Zech. 2:1-13; Zech.
3:1-2; Zech. 4:1-5; Zech. 5:2-5,10; Zech. 6:4-5).
So Pastor Chambers, who are we to believe the Bible record of all these
men who say they saw God or modern theologians? I think the answer is a
resounded: We will believe the Word of God. I suggest that you believe as
well.
As to the Mormon doctrine of God, lets clear this up by looking at several
of the defining teachings of Mormons.
From Decker's Handbook on Mormonism page 405 we read:
"Mormons believe that God the Father and God the Son are two separate gods."
(Contrary to this Dake says: “...the whole Bible abundantly proves that
there are three separate persons in the Godhead, or in the “one Lord” and
“one God” or Deity; that these three persons are in absolute unity and “are
one”... God’s Plan for Man page 500.)
"The Godhead is like the presidency of the church: a president and two counselors.
God the Father being the president and the Son and Holy Spirit are His two
counselors."
(Contrary to this Dake says “Equality with God in Divinity is definitely
stated John 5:19-29; Philippians 2:5-11." God’s Plan page 371.)
"They regard the Trinity as a pagan heresy."
(Contrary to this Dake gives over 500 scriptures proving the Trinity to
be Biblical. God’s Plan for Man page 498-500)
Scott in her book the Mormon Mirage page 169 writes: " ...the Mormon
God has a body of flesh and bones. Mormons teach that He looks like a man,
as indeed, He once was." (Doctrines and Covenants 130:22.) "God is a natural
man." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 8, page 211) "God was once a man in mortal
flesh." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, page 333)"
(Contrary to this Dake teaches that God has a “spirit” body, not flesh and
blood. God’s Plan for Man page 56-57. and Dake teaches that God
is not flesh and blood. Dake's Annotated Reference Bible, Matthew
16:17 notes I and j.)
So as you can see Pastor Chambers, Dake is not in agreement with Mormon
theology. Your attempt to associate him with them is simply a display of
your ignorance concerning Dake, and an attempt to put down Dake by associating
him with the Mormon cult.
8. Where in the Dake Bible does it say that God is 6' 2" tall and weighing
about 220 pounds, with a hand span of nine inches?Pastor Chambers you
made this statement in reference to a quote of Kenneth Copeland. You then
say that you "presume that this is where Kenneth Copeland got his Mormon
doctrine of God" insinuating that Rev. Copeland got it from the Dake Bible.
That being the case, as you assume, then where? what page? what paragraph?
which sentence in any of the Dake writings is this quote found? It
is very simple, just produce the quote? I will be waiting...... Ok
time is up. You have not found the quote because it is not there. I would
suggest a retraction is in order.
9. You state that it is totally unacceptable to limit God who is unlimited.
You make this statement on page 3, column 2 of your article. Might I state
that the Bible records at least 30 things that God has limited himself on.
-
1. He cannot break His own laws (Psalm 119:89).
- 2. He cannot lie (Hebrews
6:17-19).
- 3. He cannot deny Himself (2 Tim. 2:13).
- 4. He cannot have respect
of persons (Romans 2:11; James 2:9-10).
- 5. He cannot save one soul apart
from grace and faith in Christ (Romans 3:26; John 3:16).
- 6. He cannot be
unrighteous (Romans 9:14).
- 7. He cannot bless men apart from faith (Hebrews
11:6; James 1:5-8).
- 8. He cannot curse men when they meet His terms (1 John
1:9).
- 9. He cannot do away with or change His own eternal plan (Acts 15:18;
Ephes. 2:7; Ephes. 3:11).
- 10. He cannot save rebels who persist in rebellion,
refusing to meet His terms (Proverbs 1:22-33; Proverbs 29:1; Matthew 18:3;
John 3:3,5).
- 11. He cannot be tempted with evil (James 1:13-15).
- 12. He
cannot tolerate hypocrisy (Isaiah 1:13).
- 13. He cannot spare Himself or
Christ in the redemption of the human race from eternal hell (Matthew 27:42).
- 14. He cannot turn down one soul that comes to Him according to His terms
(John 6:37).
- 15. He cannot judge the righteous with the wicked (Genesis
19:22; Rev. 20:5-6,11-15).
- 16. He cannot fail to answer prayer when unwavering
faith is exercised (Matthew 17:20; Matthew 21:22; Mark 11:22-24; John 14:12-15;
John 15:7,16; John 16:23-26; Hebrews 11:6; James 1:5-8).
- 17. He cannot forgive
one un-confessed sin (Luke 13:1-5; 1 John 1:9).
- 18. He cannot keep one saved
who lives in sin (Romans 8:12-13; Galatians 5:19-21; Galatians 6:7-8).
- 19.
He cannot automatically cancel the death penalty when people sin and incur
that penalty (Ezekiel 18:4; Romans 16-23; Romans 8:1-13).
- 20. He cannot
do away with free moral agency and moral responsibility (Romans 6:16-23;
Romans 8:1-13; Galatians 5:19-21; 1 John 1:7).
- 21. He cannot make one a
slave to Himself so that he can never go back into sin if he chooses (Romans
6:16-23; Romans 8:1-13; Hebrews 6:4-9; Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 John 1:7).
- 22.
He cannot guarantee that every saved man will continue in Christ (John 15:1-8;
Romans 6:16-23; Romans 8:12-13; 1 Cor. 3:16-17; 1 Cor. 6:19-20; 1 Cor. 9:27;
Galatians 1:6-8; Galatians 5:4; Exodus 32:32-33; Ezekiel 33:12-20).
- 23.
He cannot make any man a son of God in the same sense Jesus is (John 1:18;
John 3:16; Romans 8:14-16).
- 24. He cannot look upon the sins of the saved
as being unreal, or deal with them on a different basis from those of the
unsaved (Romans 6:16-23; Romans 8:12-13; 1 Cor. 6:9-11; Galatians 5:19-21;
Galatians 6:7-8).
- 25. He cannot cancel any reaping for what is sown (Romans
8:12-13; Galatians 6:7-8).
- 26. He cannot force a man to serve Him against
his own will (John 3:16; John 7:17; John 8:34; 1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Peter 3:9;
1 John 1:7; Rev. 22:17).
- 27. He cannot recognize any man as His child or
His servant who serves sin and the devil (Matthew 6:24; Romans 6:16-23;
Romans 8:1-13; 1 Cor. 3:16-17; Galatians 5:19-21; 1 John 3:8-10).
- 28. He
cannot keep the saved from sin if he chooses to go back into sin (Romans
6:16-23; Romans 8:1-13; 1 Cor. 3:16-17; 1 Cor. 6:9-10,19-20; Hebrews 6:4-9;
Hebrews 10:26-29; James 5:19-20; 1 John 2:1-2; Ezekiel 33:12-20).
- 29. He
cannot keep one from incurring the death penalty should he go back into
sin (Exodus 32:32-33; Ezekiel 18:4; Ezekiel 33:12-20; Romans 6:16-23; Romans
8:12-13; 1 Cor. 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21; Galatians 6:7-8; Hebrews 6:4-9;
Hebrews 10:26-29; James 5:19-20).
- 30. He cannot be lenient with any who
sin or encourage anarchy in moral government (Genesis 2:17; Ezekiel 18:4;
Ezekiel 33:12-20; Romans 1:18-31; Romans 5:12-21; Romans 6:16-23; Romans
8:1-13; Galatians 5:19-21; Galatians 6:7-8; James 5:19-20).
Now of course
God is omnipotent. On this Dake agrees. On his note to Psalms 14:1 he says:
"Omnipotence (all powerful, Rev. 19:6). God can do all things consistent
with His nature and plan, but He cannot lie or act contrary to Himself and
the best good of all."
10. Where in any of Dake's writings does he reduce God down to the level
of men?
You make the statement on page 4, column 1: "Why would someone reduce God
down to the level of men just because God speaks of Himself with words on
our level?"
The insinuation you have made is false and clearly shows
your ignorance of the Dake writings. I challenge you to produce one statement
where Dake "reduces God down to the level of men..." Again, it is not there
and can't be found.
The very quote you use by Dake to support your
misguided contention proves your statement to be false. You quoted Dake
as saying: "Truly He is not only all that men, angels, and other beings
are in this respect, but infinitely greater in everything;"
Here in this statement Dake does not bring God down to man's level but says
that God is "infinitely greater than everything." I hate to say this, but
dear brother can you read? Of course you can. My question then is why would
you write what you do when you know it to be false?
You also stated
that Dake's statement laid the foundation for the "little gods" teaching.
You said: "His promoting of God as man with all the human attributes,
combined with the idea of us as miniature Gods, has been stretched to the
present deception of men as "little gods."
Well once again you have
not read what Dake said. Dake never said that man was a miniature of God
but: "and man in reality is simply a miniature of God in attributes and
powers." Notice a miniature of God IN ATTRIBUTES AND POWERS, not just a
miniature of God. You once again have read into Dake what was not there.
All would agree with this statement I am sure. Let's ask David the Psalmist.
Psalm 8:3-5 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon
and the stars, which thou hast ordained; What is man, that thou art mindful
of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? For thou hast made him
a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
Does this not teach man to be like heavenly beings only lower thus, very
limited? Of course man is not God and never will be. On his commentary note
to Isaiah 40:22 Dake says: "The idea is that God sits so far above the round
earth that men look like mere grasshoppers or locusts. This is a striking
illustration of man's insignificance as God sees him from the heavens."
No one can read this statement and even begin to think that Dake brings
God down to the level of man. But we now know that you did not read this
statement, for your knowledge of the Dake writings is not based upon knowledge
of the subject, but ignorance.
11. In what way does Dake carry the idea of Christ emptying Himself
to a dangerous extreme?
You make this state in the last issue you bring up concerning the emptying
of Christ. This has already been discussed in the first part of this letter
so I want go into again here. In this paragraph you state: "Dake either did
not understand the above or he willingly rejected it." I would encourage
you to read d God's Plan for Man pages 384-390. Here Dake devotes a large
portion of this book to this subject. You will find when you read it that
your beliefs and Dake's are in agreement.
12. Please provide a word for word quote.
In the next to last paragraph of your article you state: "I have tapes in
my library with Crouch and Copeland on a TBN broadcast stating that Jesus
never claimed to be God. Those quotes sound almost like a word for word
expression right out of the Dake's Bible." Pastor Chambers do
you realize you are guilty of libel. You have quoted Crouch and Copeland
but you have not quoted Dake. I challenge you, point out one quote in any
of the Dake writings where Dake states that "Jesus never claimed to be God."
According to you it must be easy to do. After all, you say
it is word for word. Then Pastor Chambers produce the words..... If not
then admit your ignorance and repent for slandering a man's good name.
Conclusion
My dear friend Pastor Chambers. I have followed your ministry for several
years now. Over these years I have been blessed and then there have been
times of disagreement. But on this issue of Dake. May I say as kindly as
I know how, you really just don't know what you are talking about. Anyone
who has studied Dake can easily see that. I call upon you to take the Dake
Bible off the shelf and check out all these "nutty" statements you have
made. I pray for you and trust you will do the right thing.
May I
also say that I realize I have made some pretty bold statements. I was going
to let some of these things go by, but I could not. I respect you as a servant
of Lord and the years of service you have given to the cause of Christ.
So please know that while we would have many disagreements here, I would
not be ashamed to call you my brother in Christ. In fact I believe that
you are going to be honest, and do the right thing, and print a retraction
in your newsletter to clear up this erred teaching you have allowed to go
forth.
I pray God blessings into your life,
Leon Bible
Pastor@GTLaurens.com
www.dakebible.com
www.dakebibleboard.com
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